comp.lang.php archive
Re: What IDE are you using?
Date: Fri Oct 28 2005 - 17:48:56 CEST
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>
>> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>
>>> So? What does that have to do with the original topic - whether an
>>> IDE is better than a text editor or not?
>>
>> It makes more of a team player when working on large projects with
>> many people. IDEs make you think of your your own little environment,
>> which then becomes specialized and only work in one very specific
>> situation.
>
> So you're saying IDE's are not the way to go? After all, they only
> work in very specific situations. Text editors work in all situations.
Ding, ding, ding! You win a prize! You finally got it (only after
several posts directly stating this!). I'm an XEmacs guy. Is that an
IDE? :-)
>>> But to respond to your comment. HTML help is fine - but do you have
>>> a search engine which can search all the web pages?
>>
>> Actually yes I do. HtDig will indeed to that.
>
> Yep, I've seen it. It requires more maintenance than Windows help
> files, for instance.
Like?
> You need a web server,
Most people/companies already have a web server. Web servers like Apache
are also free (and have much utility BTW).
> after updating pages you need to have HtDlg respider the pages.
One word: cron! Next invalid assumption...
> And you need to bring up a browser to use it.
You need to bring up Windows help viewer to view it. Let me ask you a
question: Don't you usually have a web browser running?!?
> Windows help files are more responsive since they don't require server
> resources (other than a shared directory for the help files).
Oh come on! You're actually gonna try to use a "It takes 1/2 a
nanosecond more" argument?!? Exactly how much resources do you think it
takes to serve up a web page? Balance that with the fact that your
documentation is now available company wide, which promotes
communication between team members. You have a very weak argument here dude.
> They run completely on the user's desktop.
So what?!?
> Compiling the help files is easier and faster than spidering pages,
> especially as the project grows.
And yet this help file is only available on your desktop! So how do
others view it? Oh so you pass it around, where you can then get
versionitis never mind all that useless copying...
>>> I know there are some out there - but the free ones which will run
>>> on an intranet aren't that great a quality, while the good quality
>>> ones are expensive.
>>
>> Well then you've never set one up and used it. Granted any search
>> engine is only as good as the quality of the stuff it searches...
>
> Sure I have. And it's impressive for some things. But not for
> everything!
You still haven't demonstrated how it is not impressive for what we are
discussing here. You just like your windows help files and cannot see
any other way to do it because it's foreign to you. Let me ask you this:
Major applications, software and languages from Apache, Perl, PHP, and
many other applications use the web to document their products and
languages. Now if your method is so superior why didn't they choose
Windows Help Files?
>>> Yes, there are some Unix projects out there. And there are
>>> developers who use Unix. I use Unix, also. But virtually all of my
>>> development is done on Windows with a NFS mount from the Linux
>>> machine. It's then an easy job to make the project. And although I
>>> don't do much Unix programming, I don't think I've seen ANY projects
>>> which don't have Windows on the majority of the desktops.
>>
>> Who ever said majority?!? You did - not I. I merely stated that there
>> may be some people who are not on Windows.
>
> Sure. But not on the projects I work on.
It's that the very definition of tunnel vision.
> Big difference. Note that I don't dictate the use of windows - it's
> the environment which is already there before I come in.
Again, my premise is that there are some people who are not using
Windows who will have a problem with what you propose. Additionally, how
do your Windows help files get around to other developers? You email
them (thus copying them and multiple copies often equals multiple old
copies of incompatible versions)? You put them on a share somewhere and
people reference them (and possibly copy them - after all you don't want
to take up precious server resources...) again facing the problem of
multiple copies and versions floating about. Also, how do you search a
Windows help file? Yeah I know, you fire up Windows help and use it's
facilities. But how do you search *through* multiple Windows help files?
Oh what? You can't. Thought so...
>> As for free Windows web search engines
>> http://www.google.com/search?q=free+windows+web+search+engines&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official
>>
>>
>> And as long as you already have Unix and are already accessing it,
>> surely you can put your docs there and use the Unix web server and
>> HtDig to provide documentation for all - instead of alienating those
>> simply because they didn't choose your chosen desktop - Windows. (BTW
>> My chosen desktop is Windows too! But I bear in mind others, am
>> cognizant and relatively fluent in Unix/Linux and I have seen the
>> light and utility in not locking people into one OS over the other).
>
> Sure can. I can even put the Windows help files on a shared directory
> in Unix. Or I can put them on a Windows server. Or anyplace else
> where they can be shared.
And what does a Unix user do after they get this Windows help file?
Also see above. You complain about using server resources then use them
yourself! Your arguments are disingenuous at best!
> And again - it's not *MY* chosen desktop. It's the one already being
> used.
>
> In the real-life business world (at least in the U.S.), there are very
> few people who *don't* use Windows.
Well then you haven't been around. I can assure you in the HP Language
Labs where we produced compiler products for HP-UX, people used HP
Workstations running HP-UX not Windows. Ditto for the kernel lab and
other places. And we are not talking 1 or 2 people rather hundreds.
In Sun in the area where I was contracted, it was actually forbidden to
connect a Windows PC to the corporate network!
>>> But I'm sure there are some - and the Windows help files don't work
>>> there. But they work for every project in which I've been involved.
>>
>> Shows your lack of foresight! Hey it works for me, and everybody done
>> my isle so who cares. There are reasons why it's bad to lock yourself
>> into a proprietary OS and proprietary formats and good to embrace
>> open standards. Just look at the web! It works for Windows, Unix,
>> Linux, Mac, and a host of other OSes, all relatively the same.
>
> Yep. And see my arguments above.
What? You still lack foresight. You think only in terms of Windows.
> This is a closed environment. The systems are already using Windows.
> There is *no* reason not to use Windows help files!
Sure there is. I gave you some. But then again it took at least 3 posts
for you to get that I wasn't advocating IDEs at all. I wonder how many
posts it will take this time before you actually read and think about
what I posted. You can only search Windows help files one at a time -
not index a set of them.
> Remember - I'm stating what *I* use on *my* projects. It works for
> me. I am *not* telling you what you should use.
Neither am I! I'm just saying your have tunnel vision because you do not
look beyond your close little environment. I'm not saying don't do it!
I'm saying I wouldn't do that.
> Don't tell me what I should use.
I didn't. I told you what I would use and what I see as limiting your
vision.
> You don't know my customers.
How do you know that?
> You don't know my environment.
I have a pretty good picture though.
> And you don't know my needs.
And I wasn't talking about *your* needs. I was talking about the
possible needs of others - not you!
> I know all of these. Who's in a better situation to determine what my
> needs are? Let me clue you - it is NOT YOU!
Tunnel vision, tunnel vision, tunnel vision. It's all about you isn't it!
> Just typical of "I know your job better than you do!".
>
> Forget it. This conversation is at an end.
Great!
--
Yesterday I parked my car in a tow-away zone...when I came back the
entire area was missing...
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Jerry Stuckle wrote:
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">Andrew
DeFaria wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Jerry Stuckle wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">So? What does that have to do with the
original topic - whether an IDE is better than a text editor or not?
<br>
</blockquote>
It makes more of a team player when working on large projects with many
people. IDEs make you think of your your own little environment, which
then becomes specialized and only work in one very specific situation.
<br>
</blockquote>
So you're saying IDE's are not the way to go? After all, they only
work in very specific situations. Text editors work in all situations.
<br>
</blockquote>
Ding, ding, ding! You win a prize! You finally got it (only after
several posts directly stating this!). I'm an XEmacs guy. Is that an
IDE? <span class="moz-smiley-s1"><span> :-) </span></span><br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">But to respond to your comment. HTML help
is fine - but do you have a search engine which can search all the web
pages?
<br>
</blockquote>
Actually yes I do. HtDig will indeed to that.
<br>
</blockquote>
Yep, I've seen it. It requires more maintenance than Windows help
files, for instance. </blockquote>
Like?<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">You
need a web server,</blockquote>
Most people/companies already have a web server. Web servers like
Apache are also free (and have much utility BTW).<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">
after updating pages you need to have HtDlg respider the pages.</blockquote>
One word: cron! Next invalid assumption...<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">
And you need to bring up a browser to use it.
<br>
</blockquote>
You need to bring up Windows help viewer to view it. Let me ask you a
question: Don't you usually have a web browser running?!?<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">Windows
help files are more responsive since they don't require server
resources (other than a shared directory for the help files). </blockquote>
Oh come on! You're actually gonna try to use a "It takes 1/2 a
nanosecond more" argument?!? Exactly how much resources do you think it
takes to serve up a web page? Balance that with the fact that your
documentation is now available company wide, which promotes
communication between team members. You have a very weak argument here
dude.<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">They
run completely on the user's desktop. <br>
</blockquote>
So what?!?<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">
Compiling the help files is easier and faster than spidering pages,
especially as the project grows.
<br>
</blockquote>
And yet this help file is only available on your desktop! So how do
others view it? Oh so you pass it around, where you can then get <span>versionitis</span>
never mind all that useless copying...<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">I know there are some out there - but the
free ones which will run on an intranet aren't that great a quality,
while the good quality ones are expensive.
<br>
</blockquote>
Well then you've never set one up and used it. Granted any search
engine is only as good as the quality of the stuff it searches...
<br>
</blockquote>
Sure I have. And it's impressive for some things. But not for
everything!
<br>
</blockquote>
You still haven't demonstrated how it is not impressive for what we are
discussing here. You just like your windows help files and cannot see
any other way to do it because it's foreign to you. Let me ask you
this: Major applications, software and languages from Apache, Perl,
PHP, and many other applications use the web to document their products
and languages. Now if your method is so superior why didn't they choose
Windows Help Files?<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Yes, there are some Unix projects out
there. And there are developers who use Unix. I use Unix, also. But
virtually all of my development is done on Windows with a NFS mount
from the Linux machine. It's then an easy job to make the project.
And although I don't do much Unix programming, I don't think I've seen
ANY projects which don't have Windows on the majority of the desktops.
<br>
</blockquote>
Who ever said majority?!? You did - not I. I merely stated that there
may be some people who are not on Windows.
<br>
</blockquote>
Sure. But not on the projects I work on.</blockquote>
It's that the very definition of tunnel vision.<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">
Big difference. Note that I don't dictate the use of windows - it's
the environment which is already there before I come in.
<br>
</blockquote>
Again, my premise is that there are some people who are not using
Windows who will have a problem with what you propose. Additionally,
how do your Windows help files get around to other developers? You
email them (thus copying them and multiple copies often equals multiple
old copies of incompatible versions)? You put them on a share somewhere
and people reference them (and possibly copy them - after all you don't
want to take up precious server resources...) again facing the problem
of multiple copies and versions floating about. Also, how do you search
a Windows help file? Yeah I know, you fire up Windows help and use it's
facilities. But how do you search <b>through</b> multiple Windows help
files? Oh what? You can't. Thought so...<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">As for free Windows web search engines
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.google.com/search?q=free+windows+web+search+engines&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official">http://www.google.com/search?q=free+windows+web+search+engines&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official</a>
<br>
<br>
And as long as you already have Unix and are already accessing it,
surely you can put your docs there and use the Unix web server and
HtDig to provide documentation for all - instead of alienating those
simply because they didn't choose your chosen desktop - Windows. (BTW
My chosen desktop is Windows too! But I bear in mind others, am
cognizant and relatively fluent in Unix/Linux and I have seen the light
and utility in not locking people into one OS over the other).
<br>
</blockquote>
Sure can. I can even put the Windows help files on a shared directory
in Unix. Or I can put them on a Windows server. Or anyplace else
where they can be shared.
<br>
</blockquote>
And what does a Unix user do after they get this Windows help file?<br>
<br>
Also see above. You complain about using server resources then use them
yourself! Your arguments are disingenuous at best!<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">And
again - it's not *MY* chosen desktop. It's the one already being used.
<br>
<br>
In the real-life business world (at least in the U.S.), there are very
few people who *don't* use Windows.
<br>
</blockquote>
Well then you haven't been around. I can assure you in the HP Language
Labs where we produced compiler products for HP-UX, people used HP
Workstations running HP-UX not Windows. Ditto for the kernel lab and
other places. And we are not talking 1 or 2 people rather hundreds.<br>
<br>
In Sun in the area where I was contracted, it was actually forbidden to
connect a Windows PC to the corporate network!<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">But I'm sure there are some - and the
Windows help files don't work there. But they work for every project
in which I've been involved.
<br>
</blockquote>
Shows your lack of foresight! Hey it works for me, and everybody done
my isle so who cares. There are reasons why it's bad to lock yourself
into a proprietary OS and proprietary formats and good to embrace open
standards. Just look at the web! It works for Windows, Unix, Linux,
Mac, and a host of other OSes, all relatively the same.
<br>
</blockquote>
Yep. And see my arguments above.
<br>
</blockquote>
What? You still lack foresight. You think only in terms of Windows.<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">This
is a closed environment. The systems are already using Windows. There
is *no* reason not to use Windows help files!
<br>
</blockquote>
Sure there is. I gave you some. But then again it took at least 3 posts
for you to get that I wasn't advocating IDEs at all. I wonder how many
posts it will take this time before you actually read and think about
what I posted. You can only search Windows help files one at a time -
not index a set of them.<span></span><br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">Remember
- I'm stating what *I* use on *my* projects. It works for me. I am
*not* telling you what you should use.
<br>
</blockquote>
Neither am I! I'm just saying your have tunnel vision because you do
not look beyond your close little environment. I'm not saying don't do
it! I'm saying I wouldn't do that.<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">Don't
tell me what I should use.</blockquote>
I didn't. I told you what I would use and what I see as limiting your
vision. <br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">You
don't know my customers.</blockquote>
How do you know that?<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">You
don't know my environment.</blockquote>
I have a pretty good picture though.<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">And
you don't know my needs.
<br>
</blockquote>
And I wasn't talking about <b>your</b> needs. I was talking about the
possible needs of others - not you!<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">I
know all of these. Who's in a better situation to determine what my
needs are? Let me clue you - it is NOT YOU!
<br>
</blockquote>
Tunnel vision, tunnel vision, tunnel vision. It's all about you isn't
it!<br>
<blockquote cite="midaJOdnaGecLUUpf_eRVn-gw@comcast.com" type="cite">Just
typical of "I know your job better than you do!".
<br>
<br>
Forget it. This conversation is at an end.
<br>
</blockquote>
<span>Great!</span><br>
-- <br>
Yesterday I parked my car in a tow-away zone...when I came back the
entire area was missing...
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Received on Mon Nov 21 02:52:18 2005