Re: What IDE are you using?

Oli Filth wrote:

> Andrew DeFaria wrote:
>
>> Sorry, still doesn't compute. What stops one from logging into a
>> system and tweaking and recompiling say a C program? Ah are you
>> locked into MS VisualStudio? Well lookee here! Another monolithic IDE
>> application! Which, of course, points to another reason why IDEs are
>> indeed bad. It seems you are admitting that without them you cannot work!
>
> Whether the compiler and linker are built into an IDE or stand-alone,

Huh? What are you talking about? What compiler/linkers are built into
which IDEs? I'm curious...

> you still need access to a compiler/linker in order to recompile and
> rebuild after a code change, hence "'specialist' tools" in my earlier
> point.

Having say C compiler on a machine is not what I would call a specialist
tool. It should be installed by default. Also, you can run a C compiler
from a networked location... (C is just an example here...)

> I wasn't suggesting that the need for a compiler "dictates the need
> for an IDE", simply that the previous argument (that not relying on an
> IDE means you can work anywhere easily) isn't generally true.

Granted you'll need the compiler. In my mind that's a given. You will,
BTW, need the interpreter for any of PHP, Perl, etc. locally installed.
So the point of having the necessary compiler/linker or interpreter is
moot. The point is, that you can indeed operate without an IDE except in
the rare case were the compiler/linker/interpreter, whatever is actually
built into the IDE (in fact I'd say none) - which, BTW is a crazy idea
and only goes to prove my point that you become dependent on the IDE and
unable to function without it!

>> You see it starts off with "Gee this is cool because it colors the
>> syntax. And look here it bring up the relevant documentation! And
>> auto completes. Cool, cool, cool. And I can drag and drop my files
>> into this
>> project thingy and not have to think about make files" then
>> progresses to the point where, without the monolithic IDE application
>> and your "environment" you effectively can't work - and that's bad!
>
> It kind of goes back to the "pain in the arse" argument. I *could*
> write an entire application in Notepad/XEmacs/generic-text-editor,

Of course you could. Many, many do already. In fact, as this whole
argument has been about, many prefer it that way and yes indeed many are
more productive that way!

> it would just be a pain in the arse!

Why would it be a pain in the arse (BTW you can say ass - we are all
adults here and even the FCC allows the word ass!)? I do not find it a
pain in the ass. In fact I find much utility in such tools. In fact 2, I
find more utility than I find in the pretty font, overly helpful and
over resource consuming, specialized IDEs.

> The tools offered by the IDE greatly increase my productivity,

Great! Then you use them! But do not tell everybody else to use them.

> without detracting from my *understanding* of my code (in the
> logical/design-structure sense) in any way.

I'm glad you find the tool useful. I find my tools useful.

>>> I think there's a difference between IDEs and the calculator
>>> example. By using a calculator to do your sums, it can act as a
>>> replacement for knowing *how* to calculate (I agree, BTW ;) ). Using
>>> an IDE to remind you of function syntax, for example, can't act as a
>>> replacement for knowing *how* to construct a program.
>>
>> I beg to differ. Often IDEs implement concepts of projects and other
>> things that are not only designed to work from the IDE, but can't
>> work at all unless you are in the IDE. You loose the concept of how to
>> construct the program outside of the context of the IDE itself.
>
> Ah, perhaps I should've been clearer - when I said "construct", I
> guess I meant "design", as in the design of class hierarchy,
> data-types, algorithms, data abstraction, etc., not the physical
> implementation of dividing into source files, using makefiles, source
> control, etc.

Ah again, you miscommunicated.

> But then, knowing how to build a C app via the command-line, etc.
> doesn't really offer much insight into how to build a Java app via the
> command-line, nor how to perform gate-synthesis from VHDL without the
> IDE. (The point being that the argument that knowing how to do it from
> basics is a more fundamental/universally-applicable skill doesn't
> necessarily follow either).

Again you've lost your knowledge of how to build without the IDE. You
have effectively become dependent on it and can't function without it.
Doesn't sound like a win to me...

>>> In the case of the IDE, it's not hiding anything "under the hood"
>>> (FrontPage excepted).
>>
>> I disagree. Take a sizable application that you use your IDE for and
>> take it out of the IDE. I bet you'll be surprised how it's not an
>> easy task to do...
>
> Isn't that more a compatability issue? Clearly a C++ project done in
> MS VS won't work in the Borland IDE "straight out of the box", for
> example.

Figures you'd confuse this too. No I said take it out of an IDE not put
it into another IDE. That's irrelevant. Tell me Mr. IDE Man... How do
you perform automated nightly building of these large and vastly
different applications of an organization where X uses MS VS and Y use
Borland and Z uses Powerbuilder or some other such crap, late at night
with nobody else around on some server in the back room somewhere. What
do you install all of the IDEs that everybody prefers because you cannot
build their apps without their specific IDE, or specific version of IDE?
And how to you, in an automated fashion, with nobody there, fire up
those IDEs and push buttons from a build script? Again, I'm curious...

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Oli Filth wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid1130253699.837070.100500@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com"
 type="cite">Andrew DeFaria wrote:<br>
  <blockquote type="cite">Sorry, still doesn't compute. What stops one
from logging into a system and tweaking and recompiling say a C
program? Ah are you locked into MS VisualStudio? Well lookee here!
Another monolithic IDE application! Which, of course, points to another
reason why IDEs are indeed bad. It seems you are admitting that without
them you cannot work!<br>
  </blockquote>
<!---->Whether the compiler and linker are built into an IDE or
stand-alone,<br>
</blockquote>
Huh? What are you talking about? What compiler/linkers are built into
which IDEs? I'm curious...<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid1130253699.837070.100500@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com"
 type="cite">you still need access to a compiler/linker in order to
recompile and rebuild after a code change, hence "'specialist' tools"
in my earlier point.</blockquote>
Having say C compiler on a machine is not what I would call a
specialist tool. It should be installed by default. Also, you can run a
C compiler from a networked location... (C is just an example here...)<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid1130253699.837070.100500@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com"
 type="cite"> I wasn't suggesting that the need for a compiler
"dictates the need for an IDE", simply that the previous argument (that
not relying on an IDE means you can work anywhere easily) isn't
generally true.<br>
</blockquote>
Granted you'll need the compiler. In my mind that's a given. You will,
BTW, need the interpreter for any of PHP, Perl, etc. locally installed.
So the point of having the necessary compiler/linker or interpreter is
moot. The point is, that you can indeed operate without an IDE except
in the rare case were the compiler/linker/interpreter, whatever is
actually built into the IDE (in fact I'd say none) - which, BTW is a
crazy idea and only goes to prove my point that you become dependent on
the IDE and unable to function without it!<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid1130253699.837070.100500@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com"
 type="cite">
  <blockquote type="cite">You see it starts off with "Gee this is cool
because it colors the syntax. And look here it bring up the relevant
documentation! And auto completes. Cool, cool, cool. And I can drag and
drop my files into this<br>
project thingy and not have to think about make files" then progresses
to the point where, without the monolithic IDE application and your
"environment" you effectively can't work - and that's bad!<br>
  </blockquote>
It kind of goes back to the "pain in the arse" argument. I *could*
write an entire application in Notepad/XEmacs/generic-text-editor, </blockquote>
Of course you could. Many, many do already. In fact, as this whole
argument has been about, many prefer it that way and yes indeed many
are more productive that way!<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid1130253699.837070.100500@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com"
 type="cite">it would just be a pain in the arse!</blockquote>
Why would it be a pain in the arse (BTW you can say ass - we are all
adults here and even the FCC allows the word ass!)? I do not find it a
pain in the ass. In fact I find much utility in such tools. In fact 2,
I find more utility than I find in the pretty font, overly helpful and
over resource consuming, specialized IDEs.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid1130253699.837070.100500@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com"
 type="cite"> The tools offered by the IDE greatly increase my
productivity, </blockquote>
Great! Then you use them! But do not tell everybody else to use them.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid1130253699.837070.100500@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com"
 type="cite">without detracting from my *understanding* of my code (in
the logical/design-structure sense) in any way.<br>
</blockquote>
I'm glad you find the tool useful. I find my tools useful.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid1130253699.837070.100500@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com"
 type="cite">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">I think there's a difference between IDEs
and the calculator example. By using a calculator to do your sums, it
can act as a replacement for knowing *how* to calculate (I agree, BTW
;) ). Using an IDE to remind you of function syntax, for example, can't
act as a replacement for knowing *how* to construct a program.<br>
    </blockquote>
I beg to differ. Often IDEs implement concepts of projects and other
things that are not only designed to work from the IDE, but can't work
at all unless you are in the IDE. You loose the concept of how to<br>
construct the program outside of the context of the IDE itself.<br>
  </blockquote>
<!---->Ah, perhaps I should've been clearer - when I said "construct",
I guess I meant "design", as in the design of class hierarchy,
data-types, algorithms, data abstraction, etc., not the physical
implementation of dividing into source files, using makefiles, source
control, etc.<br>
</blockquote>
Ah again, you miscommunicated. <br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid1130253699.837070.100500@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com"
 type="cite">But then, knowing how to build a C app via the
command-line, etc. doesn't really offer much insight into how to build
a Java app via the command-line, nor how to perform gate-synthesis from
VHDL without the IDE. (The point being that the argument that knowing
how to do it from basics is a more fundamental/universally-applicable
skill doesn't necessarily follow either).<br>
</blockquote>
Again you've lost your knowledge of how to build without the IDE. You
have effectively become dependent on it and can't function without it.
Doesn't sound like a win to me...<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid1130253699.837070.100500@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com"
 type="cite">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">In the case of the IDE, it's not hiding
anything "under the hood" (FrontPage excepted).<br>
    </blockquote>
I disagree. Take a sizable application that you use your IDE for and
take it out of the IDE. I bet you'll be surprised how it's not an easy
task to do...<br>
  </blockquote>
<!---->Isn't that more a compatability issue? Clearly a C++ project
done in MS VS won't work in the Borland IDE "straight out of the box",
for example.<br>
</blockquote>
Figures you'd confuse this too. No I said take it out of an IDE not put
it into another IDE. That's irrelevant. Tell me Mr. IDE Man... How do
you perform automated nightly building of these large and vastly
different applications of an organization where X uses MS VS and Y use
Borland and Z uses Powerbuilder or some other such crap, late at night
with nobody else around on some server in the back room somewhere. What
do you install all of the IDEs that everybody prefers because you
cannot build their apps without their specific IDE, or specific version
of IDE? And how to you, in an automated fashion, with nobody there,
fire up those IDEs and push buttons from a build script? Again, I'm
curious...<br>
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Received on Mon Nov 21 02:49:56 2005