Re: News Release

"Rod Engelsman" <rod.engelsman@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gsS0g.19$1D3.144526@news.sisna.com...
> Cliff wrote:
>
>>
>> And that is really a moot point to begin with as the prisoners are being
>> treated as they are prisoners of war. The only difference is what
>> standard they fall under not that they cannot be held.
>
> Not really. If they were being treated as POWs then the Red Cross would be
> allowed into Gitmo, for instance. This hasn't happened, AFAIK.

>From what I can find out the RC has made 18 visits since 1-2002.
http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/2004/tr20040624-1484.html

> Also, POWs aren't to be held criminally or morally responsible for their
> acts on the battlefield.

That is of course if they are considered POW's you are correct. If they do
not fall under the jurisdiction of the GC....well who knows. I will agree we
are treading on new ground here and that is certainly part of the problem

> I recognize that for the most part (except for certain egregious
> counter-examples)

Agreed

> they are being treated humanely. But at some point, even humane
> imprisonment becomes mis-treatment when they have yet to be afforded even
> the pro forma consideration of a kangaroo trial.

POW's are not tried. Illegal combatants, terrorists or whatever buzzword you
wish to call them can be FWIU.

> Question: Is the War in Afghanistan over yet? The country has been
> liberated and they have a functioning government. We still have troops
> there, but we still have troops in Germany so I'm not sure that means
> much. If the war is over then POWs should be returned and War Criminals
> need to be tried. Neither is happening.

Unfortunately the picture is not quite as clear as that. As the war on
terror is still ongoing it is ludicrous to think that the detainees will be
released to kill again.

> On the other hand, if they are being held as prisoners of the War on
> Terror, we have a different set of problems. The War on Terror isn't a
> real war, it's a rhetorical war.

I would agree with you except for one fact. osama and al queda declared war
on us:
http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/opf980830a.htm
Since al queda is not a country it does pose some unique problems in the
implementation of the GC.

> It's like the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty. Terrorism isn't a group
> or a state, it's a tactic. It's like a War on the Forward Pass or the End
> Run. And it is likely to never end, just like the War on Drugs or Poverty.
> I have a real hard time with a President claiming war powers that way.
>
> It looks to me like we have a President who is claiming the authority to
> arrest anyone they like, anywhere, anytime, whisk them off to a secret
> prison outside of the jurisdiction of any court system, deny them access
> to legal aid or the International Red Cross, and hold them indefinitely --
> perhaps even for life -- with no trial or any kind of accountancy to any
> outside agency or authority.
>
> That doesn't sound like America to me.

Unfortuately as I have stated before this is not a normal war. If we allow
people to use the GC as a means of circumventing our rights in regards to
detaining prisoners we have lost the war before it begins.

> I recognize that terrorism is different than ordinary war and it's
> different than ordinary criminal behavior. If we need to pass new laws and
> establish new legal principles and processes to deal with it, then fine;
> let's do that. but do it the right way. But all this secret, "no court has
> jurisdiction", and "no laws apply to what we're doing" crap has got to go.

In the most part I do agree with you. But you do have to remember it is not
our laws that outline treatment of prisoners or I mean we are not the
governing body responsible to press for a change in these laws especially
while we are at war. We are treading on new grounds here in all respects. If
I were to see summary executions, torture that is indeed torture,
withholding of food etc I would be in complete agreement with you. As far as
I have seen this is not the case at gitmo, they are fed well, treated
reasonably, allowed to practice their religeous beliefs and have access to
the Red Cross, pretty much everything that a true prisoner of war would
expect. As no decisions have been made about their status it is really a
moot point if people are held, they would be held anyway no matter what the
outcome of their tribunal.

> Try, convict, sentence, and execute. And I'll gladly borrow your 45 cal
> and serve in the firing squad. Trust me, I have no love for those
> assholes.

Oh I believe you. And I agree wholeheartedly... I just believe that what we
have done is really nothing to lose sleep over and we have nothing to be
ashamed of in regards to the treatment of these people. Just the fact that
this arguement is taking place is giving some points that the enemy can
argue against us in the court of world opinion. As long as I live I will
defend what I feel is right against those who flavor the world opinion with
half truths and innuendos in the battle of public opinion. Maybe Vietnam is
still a burning hole in my soul for the way organized propaganda turned the
tide of that war.....
Received on Mon May 1 01:07:54 2006