Re: News Release

"Volker Birk" <bumens@dingens.org> wrote in message
news:44450583@news.uni-ulm.de...
> Cliff <whidbey.us@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Cliff, why are you affronting people with other opinions here? Are you
>> > running out of arguments?
>> :) I was kidding.....:):):) It is a navy chief thing.......seems like
>> your
>> getting a bit testy here.
>
> Yes, I realized that ;-) This is why I did cancel and supersede my first
> posting.

Is cancelling still supported? I think technically it still is but afaik
none of the servers honor it.

>> Leadership failure does not mean that the leaders were complicit in the
>> knowledge as I recall there were quite a few command level personel that
>> were relieved of their duties. Note that this does not mean that they
>> were
>> guilty of allowing torture, they were guilty of what Taguba stated " a
>> failure of leadership". There is a huge difference.
>> Now may I ask you the same thing?
>> Can please explain, why you're disagreeing with Major General Antonio
>> Taguba?
>
> I don't.
>
> If leadership is failing, there have to be consequences. If leadership
> is failing constantly, and this results into heavy crimes like torture
> of people, than there have to be sincere consequences.
>
> For the officers which had to obey those men, I'm requesting punishment
> for failing to do their job completely, and causing injuring of people
> which they were responsible for.
>
> For Mr. Rumsfeld I'm requesting him to resign because of this reason.

You are asking the wrong person to resign and therin lies the problem.
People in leadership that make tough decisions nowdays are always a target.
Just because of taking a tough job a person can have his life ruined. This
is what you are doing to Rumsfeld...Oh I know he is the evil incarnation of
the devil and the root of all of our supposed failures :)

Seriously, the leader of our military is not Rumsfeld. It is George Bush.
Rumsfeld is a civilian, he has no miltary rank as he is not in the military.
GWB is the commander in chief.

> AFAIK an Officer or a Petty Officer, who are responsible for the health
> and life of the people they're commanding, such an Officer has to do
> her/his job as good as she/he can. It is not a peccadillo, if she/he is
> failing constantly for months to supervise the men, and because of this
> neglegt of her/his duty people were harmed gravely they're responsible
> for.
>
> Here are people reading, who had such a position in US Navy. Please tell
> me, if I'm wrong or right here.

You are correct but the position that Rumsfeld holds is not the same as a
commissioned officer. Rumsfeld is appointed by the president.

e is, that Mr. Rumsfeld has the political
> responsibility for this case.
>
> If the officers would have interefered immediately while supervising,
> then punishment for these men only would be correct. This is not the
> case AFAICS.

Specialist Charles Graner ten years in federal prison
Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick eight years in prison
Jeremy Sivits one-year sentence.
Specialist Armin Cruz eight months
Sabrina Harman six months.
Megan Ambuhl reduction in rank to private.
Lynndie England 3 years.
Brig. General Janis Karpinski, commanding officer at the prison was demoted
to colonel on May 5, 2005, which also effectively ends her chances for
future career advancement.

If you have any proof that any other people are guilty or had prior
knowledge and did nothing then let's see it. Including Rumsfeld.....

> I see men committing crimes constantly for a timespan of months. I see
> officers doing nothing for such a timespan. I see a commander of this
> prison doing nothing while this time to detect if his officers are doing
> their jobs or not.
>
> And I see a minister of defence, who is politically responsible for
> these drawbacks.
>
> To say the least and not to assume other, even worse things.

That is just not the way it works....I mean really, think about it. Every
leader in every war that has ever happened would be guilty by using the same
standard. Are you sure you are not using your dislike of his policies to
cloud your judgement?
Received on Mon May 1 01:08:07 2006